Hello, A few weeks ago there was concern about the lack of appropriate tags for andromorph and gynomorph characters in this community’s sidebar.
The proposal, which was very sensible proposed the tags [G] for gynomorph, [A] for Andromorph, [H] for intersex (from the word herm) and [U] for ambiguous or unknown.
I did not reply at the time due to personal circumstances, but I did want to acknowledge that it is a valid concern and request.
The issue I see with the [G] tag is that it would clash with the current tag that’s used for male gay characters.
And you might wonder, why is there such a big emphasis on using a single letter?
The rationale between using a single letter [G] to describe a picture that could be [M/M], [M/M/M], [M/M/M/M], etc… is because it make searching and filtering much easier.
A picture tagged as [G] is a picture where there’s only male gay activity represented. A picture tagged as [G-S] is a picture where there’s a group of characters representing a male gay activity and a separate group of characters that represent straight activity.
This makes it possible to easily search or filter posts you’re interested in and it avoids very verbose titles with lots of letters, especially if it’s an orgy that’s being depicted.
My proposal for representing Andromorphs and Gynomorphs is with the following tags: [G*] for Andromorphs and [L*] for Gynomorphs.
This means that andromorphs are effectively treated as male and gynomorphs are effectively treated as female. I believe this could be especially important for the fursonas of trans furries. The asterisk is there to indicate the same nuance that we’d find in written language with the wording ‘trans male’ and ‘trans female’ which to my knowledge is acceptable and not considered derogatory or representative of a lesser form of gender in any way.
[G*] would be used if at least of one the characters in andromorph. For solo pictures [M*] can be used. [M*/M] or [M*/M*] would also be acceptable for more characters although with more than two characters I’d say [G*] would be preferrable.
[L*] would be used if at least of the characters is gynomorph. For solo pictures [F*] can be used. [F*/F] or [F*/F*] would also be acceptable for more characters although with more than two characters I’d say [L*] would be preferrable.
Finally we’d have [I] for Intersex, when characters share both male and female genitals such as a penis and a vagina at the same time. To my knowledge intersex is an acceptable term.
Finally [A] can then be used for “ambiguous”.
The reason I wanted to bring this up with all of you first and just propose it for now is because I want to make sure that what I’m proposing is sensible and respectful. I wouldn’t want to make assumptions about what’s acceptable or what’s disrespectful and make a faux pas.
Please let me know your feedback! Thank you!
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I think that using the tag [G*] or [L*] specifically for solo andromorphs/gynomorphs might cause some confusion for new people, simply because the letter doesn’t match.
However, [M*] and [F*] to me feel like an excellent tag for solo images, its simple and feels more inclusive to trans folks, while keeping to the current tag system. [I] and [A] are definitely self explanatory enough to keep as they are.
Yes! I agree. Please see this post where I might have found a reasonable solution. Let me know what you think: https://yiffit.net/comment/2829711
Hmmm… I personally do not care for [G*] for Andromorph and [L*] for Gynomorph.
Wouldn’t it be just as easy to do [AM] for andromorphs and [GM] for gynomorphs if we have to use two characters to represent them? I mean [AM] and [GM] combined together atleast give us a very good hint at what is meant. Personally I think it would be easier than [G*] or [L*].
For trans characters, it might be easier to tag with the asterisk added. [M*] and [F*] seem to work, because [TM], while it might work for Trans-Male, [TF] could easily be confused for Transformation rather than Trans-Female.
deleted by creator
Hello, sorry for taking some time in getting back to you. Yes, I should make an announcement in the following days after reviewing the final system.
Thank you for reminding me!
Hello! I’m the one who made the original thread, thanks for thinking about this. I’m also a cis male, and don’t know much about trans and intersex people, so consider anything I say with a grain of salt.
My original proposal was basically lifted from e621’s tagging rules, just as a way to start conversation: https://e621.net/wiki_pages/3294 I’d personally be fine with “I” for characters that have a “non-traditional” arrangement of genitals (including none), and it probably is easier to explain than andro/gynomorph.
I’m not too sure about the terminology myself, but my understanding is that (at least as far as e621 are concerned) andro and gynomorph refer explicitly to physical characteristics rather than gender identity. Specifically, gynomorph refers to a feminine body with a penis, and andromorph refers to a masculine body with a vagina. I think the actual gender of the characters aren’t involved in the definitions.
Of course, I’ve been known to be wrong before, and this is an area I don’t feel anywhere near qualified to speak with authority. I’d be interested to hear the thoughts of people more involved in this sort of thing.
[F*]for a character that looks male (or intersex) but identifies as female would be fine by me. Although that has opened up a question as to whether we use “tag what we see” or whether a character’s identity is important.And thanks for not entertaining the terms “dickgirl”, “futa” and “cuntboy” because… Blegh.
I think it would be difficult to tag based on context since often we can’t know a character’s personality, story, beliefs, identity, etc… just what we can see. At least most of the time.
In this case, the terms ‘andromorph’ and ‘gynomorph’ literally translates to ‘male form’ and ‘female form’, and I believe that it is referring to the physical sex instead of gender, especially since ‘form’ in this case is alludes to the physical representation of the character.
What I’m trying to say is that the terms ‘andro’ and ‘gyno’ refer in this case to the physical sex and are translated as ‘male’ and ‘female’. In this sense it would make sense to use [M*] and [F*] since the original [M] and [F] tags are also related to physical sex instead of gender, since the gender of a character can’t be determined by just the character’s physical traits. A character with breasts and a vagina might very well be the fursona of a trans male furry and he feels it better represents him because it’s closer to his physical appearance.
Wait a second…
Please stand by…
googling
Okay, I think I got it.
Here’s the definition for the term ‘prime’ used in mathematics:
"In mathematics, the prime is generally used to generate more variable names for similar things without resorting to subscripts, with x′ generally meaning something related to (or derived from) x. For example, if a point is represented by the Cartesian coordinates (x, y), then that point rotated, translated or reflected might be represented as (x′, y′). "
Thus the most respectful way of tagging andromorphs and gynomorphs could be [M′] and [F′], since it does indicate that an element such as a function in mathematics is derivated, differentiated but by no means does it indicate that it’s inferior in any way. Technically the prime character ′ is it’s own character but I think that using apostrophes will suffice.
I would still like to campaign for [G’], [S’] and [L’] because I think it’s a way simplify tags when there’s 3+ characters. Most of the time when you browse yiff what matters to you is the orientation of the characters / scene, instead of the amount of characters by counting the number of Ms and Fs.
Thus, how about this:
- [M], [F], [M’], [F’], [I], [A] for solo pictures
- [M/F], [M/M], [M/F’], etc… for two characters The above categories probably encompass the vast majority of yiff and they’re easy to understand. Then we relegate group tags such as [G], [L], [S], [G’], [L’], [S’], [Bi], [Bi’] ONLY for pictures with 3+ characters as an optional representation that can save you from having to write many letters and making searching and filtering easier. (G-L-S-Bi notation would change from being discouraged for pictures with just two characters where two letters can give us full precision at a minor extra cost of a single letter and from now on only encouraged for pictures with 3+ characters)
In this case I realize that some precision is lost, but pictures with 3+ characters aren’t the majority, it’s optional and it could be tidier in many circumstances where you care about the orientation.
I think we might be getting close to having a solution? What do you think?
I think using the prime nomenclature is an excellent solution, and a nice little easter egg for those of us who understand that level of mathematics. I’ve got no criticisms for what you’ve proposed, I agree with all these points so far.
Okay, I’m re-reading everything and I think I’m misunderstanding things (which is probably a problem on my end; my reading comprehension is terrible). Just for the sake of examples, what would the following be tagged?:
- A character that appears otherwise male, but has a visible vagina.
- And conversely, a character that has a feminine body style, but with a penis.
- A character that has a feminine body structure and genitals, is holding a trans flag and the description talks about them recently having transitioned to female.
- A character with breasts and a penis, and whose overall body type besides that is somewhere between masculine and feminine.
- A character with no defining sexual characteristics, and who is referred to as “it” in the description.
Please do read this in an extremely cis guy voice, I missed where these concerns were brought up but were genitalia that big of deal that we can’t just use F and M for transfem and transmasc characters? I feel like I for intersex can be used (though I very rarely encounter a depiction of the type) and E for enby, though Ambiguous also work.
Maybe using TF and TM, like in ERP tags could also be done, if the need for precise tagging is that urgent.
I usually understand this type of cataloguing when coming from a gallery website, like e621 or rule34, which are made for archival and search purposes, but I never thought the same of image boards/forums like these.
I’m just used to sharing in blahaj’s trans yiff board, which doesn’t need precise clarifications for obvious reasons, hence the wondering.
@AdellcomdoisL @[email protected] Actually that’s my preferred option but then I was worried that by not having an option for andromorph or gynomorph characters it could also be some sort of erasure. I definitely need more feedback / opnions on the matter.
I think that gynomorph and andromorph characters should have a separate tag for two main reasons, one being for easier search and archiving purposes, and two being that some people may specifically want to look for those types of characters, or wish not to see them. I realise that may seem a little derogatory, but ultimately there are characteristics some people do or don’t find attractive, so the choice to be able to search for those traits or filter them out should exist
