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    2710 months ago

    I read the book just a couple years ago thinking it would be awesome because the book is usually better than the movie, and oh my God. I can’t believe someone actually thought that kind of government would be rad.

    • @Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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      10 months ago

      I’m not sure if Heinlein genuinely thought it would be rad. He did play around with a lot of ideas in his books. Stranger in a Strange Land is totally different and full on hippie communism or whatever you’d call it, which is in a bit of a contrast to Starship Troopers. And then there’s the Finnish matriarchy in one of the books. Of course another explanation was that he just radically changed his minds but I dunno.

      Interesting stuff, nevertheless and IMO really good book if you like military scifi.

    • @cynar@lemmy.world
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      510 months ago

      I always find it interesting to read stories investigating alternative ideas. I’m generally very left wing in my views. Stories like starship troopers are 1 way of doing it.

      The thing is, such a system has some significant advantages. You just need to paper over the cracks. The biggest issue is the requirement for an external enemy. Without one, it would likely turn inwards and destroy itself. In the book’s case it’s the bugs that provide this. They are also not mindless. You start the book with a terror raid on an ally of the bugs, proving they are capable of interstellar diplomacy. It’s designed to “persuade” them to stay out of the war, but they also idly use nuclear weapons on civilian targets.

      • @WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
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        510 months ago

        A “benevolent dictator” funnelling public funds and lives into an offensive war effort to keep the populace unified in hate sounds, and is meant to sound hellish. It’s an unnecessary waste of resources and lives that comes at the direct expense of providing for your people.

        What are the advantages?

        • @cynar@lemmy.world
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          210 months ago

          Common goals, with a strong unifying purpose for 1. Opportunities for significant advancement. Significant investment into medical care. Strong leadership direction. An extremely egalitarian society. Filtering of those in power.

          Just because it’s a horrifying setup doesn’t mean it doesn’t have advantages. It’s possible to dissect a large complex idea and extract useful tools from it. It also helps you better see the pitfalls, both to help you make decisions on it, and explain the problems to others.

          A couple of examples. The Nazis significantly improved the fitness level of a large chunk of the population. Nazi scientists were also critical in America making it to the moon. The current German autobahn road network is one of the best built in the world.

          Just because the source is horrifying doesn’t mean everything it is attached to is also horrifying. The catch is separating the 2, or explaining why the cost is not worth the benefit.

          And just to clarify. I’m a strong proponent of a robust social safety net. I also think all “natural monopoly” infrastructure should be controlled by a government owned non profit. Capitalism and nationalism should be treated like fire. A fire in a hearth will keep you warm. A fire in a smelter will help make steel. A fire in your bedroom will kill your family. Useful, but controlled and channeled.

          • @WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
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            110 months ago

            Common goals, with a strong unifying purpose for 1.

            In no way reliant on a benevolent dictator, and using authoritarianism to push a purpose generally results in outcomes like genocide and the annexation of neighbouring territories.

            Opportunities for significant advancement.

            The opposite is typically true as autocratic leaders use their power to entrench their power, enforcing strong hierarchies.

            Significant investment into medical care.

            This one is a mixed bag, but also isn’t remotely dependent on an autocrat.

            Strong leadership direction.

            That needs to point in a positive direction for it to be a positive - something that’s almost never happened for long

            An extremely egalitarian society.

            The opposite is almost invariably the case - preferential treatment (generally paired with bloodshed) is necessary to keep the powerful in power.

            Filtering of those in power.

            Who filters the dictator? That would mean they’re not a dictator.

      • @rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
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        10 months ago

        I liked the general approach, but my own system designed by the same method plus my, not author’s personality would look completely different.

        • @cynar@lemmy.world
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          110 months ago

          Books like this are a “what if” game. The details, and the author’s biases will shape it. They are still useful tools however for seeing how things will play out.

    • @Wogi@lemmy.world
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      310 months ago

      The parts of that book that aren’t heavy handed philosophy are great. There’s some fuckin awesome sci Fi hidden in the book that’s pretty much “Atlas shrugged for the military”

    • @Wanderer@lemm.ee
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      -1410 months ago

      There is a lot of good arguments in that book.

      A system where you have to do something positive for your country to vote isn’t the worst idea.

      • @kofe@lemmy.world
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        2010 months ago

        … And who, exactly, gets to decide what is something “positive” enough to warrant having your voice represented? Fucking yikes my dude.

        • @Wanderer@lemm.ee
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          10 months ago

          Citizens vote on it I imagine.

          It was a very democratic society all you had to do was serve.

          • @kofe@lemmy.world
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            910 months ago

            Right, so if I don’t serve I don’t get to vote. That’s fucking wild. Let’s look at Israel for how great compulsory service is and a beacon of democracy then shall we

            • @Wanderer@lemm.ee
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              -110 months ago

              Israel is way more militaristic than the society in Starship Troopers. That isn’t a fair comparison.

          • @0ops@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            Who gets to vote is decided by a vote? How did they get their right to vote? That’s a great incentive for current voters to prevent anyone who doesn’t agree with them from getting voting rights in the future.

            • @Wanderer@lemm.ee
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              -210 months ago

              Same as women voting or 16 years old or people without land.

              People vote on who gets to vote

              • @0ops@lemm.ee
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                610 months ago

                Yeah sure, until civil war breaks out decades later over the huge portion of the population that couldn’t vote because it was democratically decided that they were the wrong skin color. It’s not like this is some untested idea.

                • @Wanderer@lemm.ee
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                  -210 months ago

                  Okay you’re right. An elite few should hold the power on who gets to vote and who doesn’t.

                  • @0ops@lemm.ee
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                    10 months ago

                    What is the original voting block hoarding their voting rights (eg white male land owners) if not an elite few?

                    Look, obviously infants can’t vote, so you have a point that technically there needs to be a democratic way to decide who can and can’t vote based on maturity/age at least, but there’s no good argument for any further restrictions on adult residents subject to the law of their government. I don’t care if they’re not in military service, I don’t care if they’re bums on the street, I don’t care if they’re slaves, I don’t care if they’re serving life in prison - they’re citizens, they’re subject to the system, they deserve equal say in how the system works. Excessively legislating who can and can’t vote is just asking for “an elite few” to exploit it.