So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it’s okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
I didn’t say “it was okey”. I said i do understand why that happens. I am also saying Israel takes some steps to limit the number of civil victims, while Hamas takes none
Hamas has a different agenda. It’s an asymmetrical conflict. The intention of Hamas and Hezbollah is to provoke Israel into a genocide. Hiding among the trees to incite Netanyahu to burn down the forest.
They want nothing more then to get on video Israeli forces massacring thousands of Palestinian civilians.
I’m not an expert. So I’d defer to Lt. General James Glynn, survivor of Fallujah on how to approach the situation in Gaza.
I’d also refer to centuries of counter-insurgency that notes that massacring civilians only drives more recruits to the enemy cause, often recruits who are willing to engage in suicide missions.
Even leaving the hospital intact and doing nothing was a better option, and in fact, Israel is not fighting a war of desperation, and can actually afford to approach violence with deliberation and consideration.
The reason Netanyahu is behaving like Trump or George W. Bush is because he likes the idea of rushing in with stormtroopers and crushing the enemy, not because it’s actually a good idea. And that’s why Hezbollah provoked him in the first place.
I am not a fan of Netanyahu/Trump/Bush neither, however you only described what not to do.
I am still convinced that taking out Hamas out of Gaza is the viable long term solution. I don’t know about the hospital, and believe IDF knows better than me
Actually I said doing nothing would be better than what they did so that is, compared to bombing a hospital, a viable alternative.
Getting Hamas out of Gaza is going to be like getting white supremacists out of the US. It’s virtually impossible, but when the hearts and minds of the public are not pissed off due to poor governance, they can be reduced to a fringe group.
So if Israel stopped its thousand-year religious resentment plan, provided relief and then promoted equal treatment of the Palestinian public (installed enforcement of civil rights) that would do a tuckfun to reduce the significance of Hamas, Hezbollah or any other terrorist groups Iran or Russia might throw into the mix.
But this requires the right-wing identity groups in Israel giving up their ethnostate and modernizing their attitude — what is a challenge even for the EU and US (though the US stopped trying over a century ago).
So I’m going to watch Israel bath Gaza in the blood of Palistianians and make the rest of the world sick to their stomachs, and we’ll all promise, yet again, never to let this happen, to never forget.
See, the consequences of Israel jackbooting like every other imperialist is built into the paradigm. Sadly it’ll also add fuel to the antisemitic fires already igniting across the world. The thing is, Netanyahu and the IDF have bought the ticket to ride, as if no lives they cared about were actually in the balance.
Alright, you do have sensible arguments. I based my opinion on the fact that Hamas could be taken down, just like ISIS was. I don’t have a crystal ball telling me if that gonna succeed, as it did with ISIS, or not.
Congratulations you seeded a grain of a doubt in the mind of a Random Internet Stranger, this might as well be counted as victory.
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, curiously, is still around and still has its labor camps. It’s just doesn’t have any support (that I’ve heard for a while) from international interests, and no-one want to touch it. So yeah, this is an end result that can occur.
The point is not to win over random internet strangers, but to get as many people as possible at the same place in the dialog. Providing support and fair governance to a people to quell unrest is a centuries old COIN method. When we have the resources (in the case of Gaza, we have some that would absolutely help) the question is what the obstructions are getting them to the people so they can breathe easier. That usually comes down to political interests who want them to suffer for spite (we saw that with the George W. Bush administration and anything that looked remotely Arab or Muslim) and those who want them to be angry and violent. Sometimes there’s intersection between these.
Right now, here in the States, hate is deliberately being used to manipulate voters, and at the same time I think we can’t really call ourselves a unified society unless we’re at least trying to cooperate towards mutual benefit. And this informs my own bias.
First of all, you’re either ignorant or an idiot if you think what Israel is doing is “indiscriminate”.
More importantly, what’s your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Does that force come from a people who’ve been deprived of everything, forced into a system of apartheid, robbed of their freedom and routinely bullied, tortured and killed for half a century?
That seems to be an important factor to just leave out of the equation.
More importantly, what’s your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Let’s do a little thought experiment here. Say that everything happened exactly as before except this time they retreated and hid inside Israeli hospitals and schools, on the Israeli side of the border, full of Israeli citizens. Do you think Israel would attack those terrorists in the same way?
Probably not, because those would be THEIR hospitals. There would be no tunnel system, no munitions stores, etc etc.
Your “gotcha” thought experiment is asking whether or not a country should treat the enemy country with equal caution to their own. Did you even consider it before asking it?
So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it’s okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
I didn’t say “it was okey”. I said i do understand why that happens. I am also saying Israel takes some steps to limit the number of civil victims, while Hamas takes none
Hamas has a different agenda. It’s an asymmetrical conflict. The intention of Hamas and Hezbollah is to provoke Israel into a genocide. Hiding among the trees to incite Netanyahu to burn down the forest.
They want nothing more then to get on video Israeli forces massacring thousands of Palestinian civilians.
So for Hamas, it’s Christmas.
The goal of Hamas is not to provoke isreal into a genocide, it’s to make people think israel is committing a genocide. It’s definitely working.
Do you think what is happening is something different?
What was the correct response, according to you?
Not bombing a hospital.
I’m not an expert. So I’d defer to Lt. General James Glynn, survivor of Fallujah on how to approach the situation in Gaza.
I’d also refer to centuries of counter-insurgency that notes that massacring civilians only drives more recruits to the enemy cause, often recruits who are willing to engage in suicide missions.
Even leaving the hospital intact and doing nothing was a better option, and in fact, Israel is not fighting a war of desperation, and can actually afford to approach violence with deliberation and consideration.
The reason Netanyahu is behaving like Trump or George W. Bush is because he likes the idea of rushing in with stormtroopers and crushing the enemy, not because it’s actually a good idea. And that’s why Hezbollah provoked him in the first place.
I am not a fan of Netanyahu/Trump/Bush neither, however you only described what not to do.
I am still convinced that taking out Hamas out of Gaza is the viable long term solution. I don’t know about the hospital, and believe IDF knows better than me
Actually I said doing nothing would be better than what they did so that is, compared to bombing a hospital, a viable alternative.
Getting Hamas out of Gaza is going to be like getting white supremacists out of the US. It’s virtually impossible, but when the hearts and minds of the public are not pissed off due to poor governance, they can be reduced to a fringe group.
So if Israel stopped its thousand-year religious resentment plan, provided relief and then promoted equal treatment of the Palestinian public (installed enforcement of civil rights) that would do a tuckfun to reduce the significance of Hamas, Hezbollah or any other terrorist groups Iran or Russia might throw into the mix.
But this requires the right-wing identity groups in Israel giving up their ethnostate and modernizing their attitude — what is a challenge even for the EU and US (though the US stopped trying over a century ago).
So I’m going to watch Israel bath Gaza in the blood of Palistianians and make the rest of the world sick to their stomachs, and we’ll all promise, yet again, never to let this happen, to never forget.
See, the consequences of Israel jackbooting like every other imperialist is built into the paradigm. Sadly it’ll also add fuel to the antisemitic fires already igniting across the world. The thing is, Netanyahu and the IDF have bought the ticket to ride, as if no lives they cared about were actually in the balance.
Alright, you do have sensible arguments. I based my opinion on the fact that Hamas could be taken down, just like ISIS was. I don’t have a crystal ball telling me if that gonna succeed, as it did with ISIS, or not.
Congratulations you seeded a grain of a doubt in the mind of a Random Internet Stranger, this might as well be counted as victory.
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, curiously, is still around and still has its labor camps. It’s just doesn’t have any support (that I’ve heard for a while) from international interests, and no-one want to touch it. So yeah, this is an end result that can occur.
The point is not to win over random internet strangers, but to get as many people as possible at the same place in the dialog. Providing support and fair governance to a people to quell unrest is a centuries old COIN method. When we have the resources (in the case of Gaza, we have some that would absolutely help) the question is what the obstructions are getting them to the people so they can breathe easier. That usually comes down to political interests who want them to suffer for spite (we saw that with the George W. Bush administration and anything that looked remotely Arab or Muslim) and those who want them to be angry and violent. Sometimes there’s intersection between these.
Right now, here in the States, hate is deliberately being used to manipulate voters, and at the same time I think we can’t really call ourselves a unified society unless we’re at least trying to cooperate towards mutual benefit. And this informs my own bias.
First of all, you’re either ignorant or an idiot if you think what Israel is doing is “indiscriminate”.
More importantly, what’s your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Does that force come from a people who’ve been deprived of everything, forced into a system of apartheid, robbed of their freedom and routinely bullied, tortured and killed for half a century?
That seems to be an important factor to just leave out of the equation.
“Pick up the gun…” - Bill Hicks
No. Obviously? And it’s irrelevant. There’s no symmetry here.
If Hamas puts down their guns there would be peace.
If Israel puts down there guns there would be no Israel.
Only a Hasbara clown or a complete idiot would utter such stupidity, congrats.
Let’s do a little thought experiment here. Say that everything happened exactly as before except this time they retreated and hid inside Israeli hospitals and schools, on the Israeli side of the border, full of Israeli citizens. Do you think Israel would attack those terrorists in the same way?
Probably not, because those would be THEIR hospitals. There would be no tunnel system, no munitions stores, etc etc.
Your “gotcha” thought experiment is asking whether or not a country should treat the enemy country with equal caution to their own. Did you even consider it before asking it?