cross-posted from: https://hexbear.net/post/3752956
Fascism is here.
https://www.axios.com/2024/10/22/trump-mass-deportation-immigrant-camps
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Years ago, well before Trump was a name we heard multiple times every fucking day, George Takei came and spoke at a thing I attended. He told the story of his family being rounded up during WWII because they were Japanese.
He was only 4 or 5 or so, but he still remembers the moment when they came to his house and took him and his family away to one of those camps.
It was an incredibly moving story and he told it with such emotion that it was as if it had happened to him the year before. People in the audience were tearing up. I’ll never forget it.
This is not okay.
Takei talked about it earlier this year on Jesse Tyler Ferguson’s podcast as well
https://player.fm/series/dinners-on-me-with-jesse-tyler-ferguson/george-takei
what
The
Fuck
Now do the one on welfare recipients. Plenty of Republicans can be trapped into admitting they think anyone on welfare for too long should be in a work camp.
Trapped?
They’ll say we need to do more to get them to work harder. Like make them apply for extra jobs. When you ask what if that doesn’t work you eventually get to work camps.
They don’t see people on welfare as people.
They don’t see anyone they perceive as “lesser” than them as people; and they think they’re better than a whole lotta people.
And they don’t see the problem with that. Which is why they’ll say the quiet part out loud with so little effort.
As long as we are putting people in “militarized camps” can we do that with Republican voters instead of immigrants? I reckon it would have way better effects in society.
Reminds me of someone, i can’t seem to remember who
deleted by creator
Would it be a certain orange guy?
Black-and-white, mostly, I think.
Yeah, with that funny squiggle
That’s the one.
No wonder Trump killed the bipartisan immigration reform bill. I didn’t realize the anti-immigrant sentiment had gotten to this level in so much of the population. It’s frankly horrifying.
You would be surprised how many legal immigrants hate other immigrants. They’ve been targeted pretty heavily by the propaganda that illegals are getting all kinds of free money and etc
I mean, I get it in that case. Legally immigrating is a massive pain in the ass, and costs several thousand dollars.
Immigration was hard for me, so it should be hard for others too.
Same sentiment as being against student loan forgiveness because you already paid yours off.
Or just get married to a citizen
That also costs thousands of dollars not counting the wedding costs
I’d love to know more about how that poll was conducted. 22% of democrats? 47% of independents? I’m skeptical that those are really reflective of how prevalent those attitudes are.
Do y’all talk to people day-to-day?
I hear a lot of anti immigrant rhetoric from my immigrant aunts and my more “trashy” or low-class friends (all kids of immigrants)
I’ve been saying this for more than a decade now, before bots became such a huge thing (I think), if YouTube comments are any reflection of the average person/American, we’re so beyond fucked. I absolutely do not practice cynicism
Yep. I think there’s a huge amount of left leaning online people in denial.
They keep thinking that they just need to tell people about all these issues and then obviously those people will see it as wrong. Nope, a huge number of their fellow citizens are absolutely aware of this shit and actively approve of it.
Bringing ‘awareness’ is pointless if the people actually approve of this horrible stuff.
To be clear, I don’t think most of these folks fully understand the consequences of supporting fascist politicians. My imm. aunt startled me a bit yesterday when said something like democracy means gay people everywhere. I said that’s not true and “reminded” her democracy is a system of gov where citizens can vote, one where women weren’t previously able to participate in, nor black citizens.
Still, where does that leave us? No fuckin joke, we basically need to stop trying to use facts to reach certain folks. My understanding is that means we need to use emotions/emotional intelligence. How do we do that? Not sure. Many of us had to numb the fuck out to survive what we call American culture, so we’re really just barely learning
How do we now make Americans that kinda hate our guts, because of tons of propaganda, that we care about them and want to work with them to improve our nation? Most libs kinda do come off like they hate them, tbf
Idk if that made sense. Kinda stuck rn
Agreed on the emotional intelligence approach. I’m tired of democrats thinking logic and facts will just sway everyone and then being all high and mighty when that doesn’t work on some people.
The whole thing with Trump being weird was an excellent attempt at actually messaging in a way that resonates with people. There’s a reason ads for stuff like cars and medicine focus more on happy experiences and not on what the product actually is.
We need to be building a brand identity, shaping how people feel about us and focusing less on the raw facts and logic. It doesn’t work on seemingly most Americans, continuing to use it despite the lack of results really makes me question whether we really are controlled opposition.
Survey methodology is described in detail here - https://www.prri.org/research/challenges-to-democracy-the-2024-election-in-focus-findings-from-the-2024-american-values-survey/#page-section-12 (archived at https://ghostarchive.org/archive/FtPGJ)
Well, based on your and other responses I guess I’ve been giving my fellow Americans too much credit…
The margin of error for the national survey is +/- 1.82 percentage points at the 95% level of confidence
Jesus Christ. The methodology actually sounds good. This is… So very, very troubling for our nation.
We’ve been a deeply racist and violent country for longer than we’ve been a country. Built on genocide and slavery. We didn’t properly address our failures when we had the chance (Civil War should have ended with a new constitution and drastically different political structure to keep militant bigots from gaining power) and now we have this.
Almost 27% identify as independent?
Ive never seen any voting poll that even comes close to that. Majority in the survey are white, 50+, evangelical/mainline christian midwestern/southerners. That demographic doesn’t help skew to 27% independent to me. The study posted source and methodology though so I don’t know what to say.
Libertarians.
Anecdotal, but my father, a white 50+ Christian Midwestern man, has made it very clear he’s voting for Trump a third time. He’s Republican in every way except on paper, because he’s registered independent and identifies as such. So there’s that
Edit, Google turns up this as the first result. In fact, every poll and article I found at a cursory gland supported that. Where are you getting your information that most voters aren’t independent?
The results in any election? 27% claim independent, yet any major election is vastly R or D.
My thing is, claiming your I but not voting that way is odd. I think we can say most libertarians that would be part of this independent block end up voting R.Yeah, OP is forgetting about all those capital-C Conservatives that won’t register Republican because the Republicans are too moderate and those that left the party specifically so they can disavow this type of rhetoric but still vote straight ®.
There are a ton of independents that are “inverse RINOs” meaning they are Republicans in everything but name.
Oh no, that’s pretty accurate. We lost the information war on immigration pretty horribly. The project to demonize the poor was set back by the pandemic, except for the homeless. So now they’re going after the homeless first and they’ll be back around for welfare recipients too.
It is not an exaggeration to say we’re cannibalizing our marginalized populations for political capital.
Oops! You missed the disclaimer: *of all participants polled, including only individuals who opted in to the poll, on this specific website or streetside polling campus, during these specific hours in the day.
Edit: Apologies if any of this was misleading. I only meant to point out that polls often have hidden implicit biases due to the nature of their process.
Careful spreading misinformation. This commenter linked the methodology. This is more serious than you’d think
I’m a third-generation immigrant in the UK who grew up in a working class environment. Anti-immigrant rhetoric is common.
I had recently gotten a campaign spam mail from a conservative candidate that put “people over politics” yet one of their running issues was “supporting vets over illegal immigrants”.
He killed the bill because without it he would lose his single biggest campaign issue.
But it’s pretty ridiculous all around when your only options are:
A) Put illegal aliens in concentration camps and prisons
B) Don’t enforce immigration laws at all and disband ICE.
In a sane world you would enforce immigration laws but do so in a way that doesn’t violate human rights and which considers asylum claims as required under US law and international conventions.
Nobody in this race wants to get rid of ICE though.
The actual options are,
A) Put undocumented people and Asylees into camps or;
B) Turn all deportations into 48 hour “expedited removals” and remove any claim to asylum because it’s been turned into a catch 22.
(You must apply from the country you’re currently in that’s not the US. You are not eligible because you felt safe enough to stay in that country during the application process)
There is no option to have an amnesty or get rid of ICE.
Is there any chance of redefining terms of asylum? Like to remove drug cartel violence
We already ignore cartel violence. Conservatives have tried multiple times to declare Mexico a safe country.
I didn’t realize the anti-immigrant sentiment had gotten to this level in so much of the population
I think the causation is backwards here, a lot of low engagement voters just assume that the best policies are somewhere to the left of whatever the GOP wants and to right of whatever the Dems are pushing for, but they keep thinking that even as the Dems move to the right.
Dems were thinking if independents saw that they’d respect the Dems willingness to compromise or whatever, but Indies saw that and just decided “Oh, I guess immigration really is a problem like the Republicans were saying all along, even the Democratic party thinks we need a border wall now.”
e; an attempt at better phrasing
Immigrants could commit <10% of the crime of non-immigrants, and contribute >90% more in taxes. It still wouldn’t stop them being an outgroup. No fact of immigrants being good for the country they go to can overcome “but they don’t belong here”, because prejudice is not logical.
Oh yeah. It’s why Biden’s administration has been the worst yet for immigrants with the sole exception of Trump’s. The only actual rollback they did was family separation and long term detention without cause. They fucked Asylees over even harder, and arguably unconstitutionally. They kept Remain in Mexico, just with performative attempts to strike it. They did it the exact same way Trump did his muslim ban, knowing the courts wouldn’t allow it.
It turns out a decade of demonization on Fox News has an effect.
Yeah. It’s pretty easy to get lost in an echo chamber like lemmy. A lot of folks don’t like immigration.
This is more of a comment on the efficacy of having several media apparatus boast unified lies without consequences.
The absolute lack of consequences for blatantly lieing, omitting truth, falsifying information, and ignoring reality is why we are in this mess.
This can definitely be applied to both left and right, but the Left master plan seems to be “tolerance for all” and the Right master plan seems to be some hybrid business/monarchy system that obviously is trying to enslave 99% of the population.
This toss up is only possible with half the population living in an alternate reality without realizing it.
Is it a final solution?
For some. Trump just Goebbels this up.
Pfffff
Look it makes sense to concentrate them…into camps.
And the more that I think about it, militarized camps sounds ominous.
How about a friendlier name, like concentration camps.
They’re just like summer camp, but you where you learn to concentrate more better.
Ah ha! Nailed it:
The Better Camps for More Concentration
Arbeit Macht Frei.
We’ve learned nothing. Humanity might be a lost cause.
That’s going to be on the gate of the camps for the homeless and
welfare recipientslazy.Dude, they mostly speak Spanish, not German…But yes, I agree, that would make a great motto for:
The Better Camps for More Concentration
I’m thinking we put a sign up at the gates that reads:
El Trabajo te Hace Libre
Anywho, now we’re cooking with gas.
Thanks for the assist!
I guess I’m crazy thinking we should just help them to do what they need to do to become citizens. I work with a few undocumented men and they are just doing what I’m doing, working to take care of my family.
We shouldn’t even be enforcing the border this way. You come across, you give a name, a retina photo, fingerprints, and a passport photo. In exchange you receive an ID, a tax ID number, and a booklet containing common laws and workers rights in the US. You are then pointed at the shuttle to the nearest Greyhound Bus Station.
This reduces “illegal entry” to something that only actual criminals need to do. It also solves our employment crisis in construction and agriculture. Our border agents can now focus on stopping actual drugs and criminals instead of normal people who are really scared.
But we can’t do this for… Reasons. I’ve never actually gotten a good reason we couldn’t do this.
Okay, so militarized detainment camps for people who enter the border is cool, but taking people who orchestrate a coup, lining them up against a brick wall, and having a firing squad go through them is not.
Hard to follow their logic in regard to protecting our great nation
Concentration Camps are NOT Nazi things!
I think you mean not just Nazi things
You’re both right.
Nazis had death camps, which are a type of concentration camp.
Concentration camps were what Americans had, when we imprisoned Japanese-American citizens. Apparently, Internment camps are concentration camps for “enemies” and supposedly not meant to imprison a country’s own citizens
It shouldn’t be hard to understand the benefit of this being confusing and who it benefits. It benefits the people that supported these unreasonable and racist actions and those that have profited off such actions economically and socially
Source, though I didn’t read everything
They were concentration camps before they became work and death camps.
Putting them into camps would be a human rights violation but it’s not exactly a ridiculous notion to say that illegal aliens should be deported. This whole game of calling them immigrants is bullshit. Immigrants have visas and permanent residency cards, illegal aliens have no permission to be in the US at all. You don’t just wantonly get to walk into a country without permission and then act like you have a right to be there. Sovereign states have a right to decide under their laws who is allowed in their territory.
The best actual solution would be to start charging their home countries for deportation and have a check in, check out system for temporary visas where you check in to get the visa at a US embassy or consulate in your home country and once the visa is expired you have a certain number of days to check out at the same embassy or consulate in your home country or a warrant for your arrest is immediately issued in the US to have you deported, again at your government’s expense.
But why? Why can’t we just register them at the border?
This whole game of calling them immigrants is bullshit. Immigrants have visas and permanent residency cards.
And this is according to who exactly?
Comments like this make it clear that quite a few people don’t actually understand America, how it was founded, or why it has been so successful in the past. Immigration is GOOD. All these “illegals” you want to ship away are GOOD FOR OUR COUNTRY.
My issue isn’t with the people it’s with the fact that they break the law to enter this country. If you want them to be able to come over then follow the democratic process and change the law instead of encouraging breaking it.
And since you want to be all patronizing my parents and grandparents immigrated to this country and had to go through a long process to do so. Those processes aren’t just there for no reason. Part of the process involves getting medical exams done to ensure people aren’t bringing over diseases, which I would think any sane person would support, there are also checks to ensure that said person doesn’t have any criminal history and so on. Skip all of that and you have no fucking clue what kinds of people you’re letting in.
And that’s before we consider how big of a slap in the face it is to people who did follow all the rules and are waiting to get in legally while you want to allow those who break the law to get in to stay without any consequences.
You say that these people are good for the country and provide value and I don’t disagree that they can be however we need to have an orderly system for processing people to get work visas, green cards, and citizenship and we do. My issue is that we shouldn’t let those who decide they can just circumvent the system because they don’t like it to get away with it unpunished and frankly neither should the predatory employers that knowingly employ them.
If you really think we need more people to come in and work then call your congressman and get them to raise the quota for temporary work visas so these people can be screened, come in, work legally and with all employment protections offered under US law, pay taxes, and go home.
the fact that they break the law to enter this country
Laws are not just merely because someone made them laws.
If we let people show up, get registered, and live here then all of the people on the waiting list can just … show up.
idk about you, a massive chunk of corporate employees are immigrants and only came here cus they were either suckered into being here and trafficked, or trynna get away from cartels or war. if we deported all of them at once, the nation would quite literally, blow up.
Say goodbye getting your roofs fixed, or your house cleaned, or your lawn mowed, or your house painted, or your
dude they fucking do 90% of all the dirty work in this country, Lets maybe NOT deport what is the backbone of this country and instead get them some rights so corporations can stop being sleezy pieces of shit and underpaying people.
You have this logic reversed. They do the work because they undercut domestic labor by accepting lower wages in cash.
In your best actual solution, how do refugees apply for asylum?
They don’t of course because we’ll never admit that Mexico is in a long running civil war with its cartels.
In the first safe country they arrive at like they’re supposed to under international law. If their claim is denied, then they need to accept deportation.
There’s nothing fascist about that. It’s the international convention for how these things are handled. Refugees don’t get to pick and choose where they are given refuge.
This reminds me of the south Americans coming up in one of the caravans who were given free food and shelter by the Mexican government and they complained that they didn’t like the food and threw it away. And those people wanted to keep going up to the US. That’s not fair in any sense and anyone who’s being that picky about where they’re given asylum and what food they’re given using tax money from a host country isn’t a legitimate refugee.
[…] the South Americans coming up in one of the caravans who were given free food and shelter by the Mexican government and they complained that they didn’t like the food and threw it away.
Ok, I’m going to level with you: that sounds like 100% bullshit rage bait - did you hear it on AM radio in flyover country? Do you have any source of this tale at all?
Good luck making this argument on lemmy. 🤡 You are not alone in your thinking though.
