- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ca/post/20749204
Another positive step in the right direction for an organization rife with brokenness. There’s a lot I don’t like about the organization, but this is something a love–a scouting organization open to young women and the lgbtq community. The next step is being inclusive of nonreligious agnostic and atheist youth and leaders. As well as ending the cultural appropriation of Native American peoples.
May this organization continue to build up youth, never allow further violence against youth, and make amends for all the wrongs. There’s a lot of good that comes out of organizations like this and I won’t discount it even though it’s riddled with a dark history.
It’s a pity that I’m still ineligible to work with the Scouts. I have a lot of happy memories from my decade in Scouting, and still have a significant interest in many of the things that I did while I was in the organization. Unfortunately, my religion is, shall we say, disfavored within Scouting, and is not permitted for either youth or leaders.
Religion, while required, plays a very minor role practically speaking. Even your “disfavored” beliefs should be permitted.
My “belief” in my own imaginary mythos is enough to satiate the non-sectarian requirements thus far. I simply don’t speak about it any detail.
This thread has reminded me that talking to my kids about this is important because my eldest, practically speaking, is agnostic. I don’t want them to feel uncomfortable lying for Eagle, so I want to share some options. There’s a lot of ways for a scout to be reverent without actually believing in a deity.
Here’s a little more on the requirement: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-scouting/
I can’t wait until this “integral” part of the program is made a thing of the past.
I am a Satanist; although it’s religious, it’s also explicitly atheistic. Per your blog, “By signing the membership application, each leader has already acknowledged the Declaration of Religious Principle which affirms a belief in God […]”. While I could quite truthfully say that I acknowledge myself as my own god, I do not believe in God, and I can not honestly affirm that I believe a belief in any external god to be necessary in order to be a good person and citizen.
“A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent”; I can’t be trustworthy without also being wholly honest, including that I don’t believe in an external god. “On my honor, I will do my best, to god and my country, to uphold the Scout law, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight”; how could I say this without being deceptive? I know that the ‘god’ they’re referring to is a deity outside of myself, and it wouldn’t be moral for me to swear to this without also believing in some form of external deity.
I hear you and applaud the conviction.
I feel very okay acknowledging myself as my own god and yourself as yours. It’s certainly a reinterpretation, but I’m okay with that for the sake of offering this to my own children. Children hardly know what it means to believe in a god as it is, so I figure why complicate it. I love to teach them what it means to be reverent in a way that is different from the status quo.
In the end though, my preference is that atheists are permitted as they are. Period. Full stop.
We can teach reverence without an external deity.
Also while it may be true in some parts of the country, I cannot imagine the other volunteers will ban you for something as semantic as the “wrong” religion or a different definition of reverence.
That is false. They are very explicit in their policies that they do not define “god”. Their policies leave the definition of “god” to be determined by the scout, not the scouting organization.
The “duty to god” requirement charges you with defining your own god. You are not beholden to anyone else’s definition.
They do not define god, but they do constantly refer to God (capital G), and a requirement for faith. Faith ends up being extremely hard to define, but from the context in which it is used here, it strongly implies that faith requires a belief in an external deity.
The simple way to answer this question would be to simply ask; I can write to the Scout board, say that I’m an Eagle Scout–which is true–that I’ve had a change of faith since I was in Scouting, and that I now identify as an atheistic Satanist, and ask if I am eligible to work in adult leadership roles. Which I am doing right now.
Your link is to a site hosted by andividual scouter. It is not the policy of the organization.
Correct. Which is why the organization does not actually define it. They explicitly state that it is to be defined by the scout and the scout’s family.
I, too, am an atheist, by the usual definition of the term: I believe in no supernatural deities. However, with BSA’s definition, “atheism” is only possible if I believe in nothing whatsoever. Some extreme form of nihilism. With BSA’s definition, I do, indeed, have a “god”: my own consciousness. I do, indeed, have a “religious” creed: logic, rationality, the pursuit of understanding reality. I wouldn’t normally refer to these as “god” or “religion”, but they serve the same purposes for me that gods and religions serve to theists.
That is not a question they can answer. They charge you with defining your “god”. You are the authority on the subject, not them.
If asked how I fulfill my “duty to God”, I would respond that within my worldview, the concept that BSA refers to as “god” is more commonly described as “consciousness”. I might mention that within my worldview, it is considered “impolite” and “imprecise” to refer to consciousness as “god”, but that I recognize there is no malicious intent behind the BSA usage of the term. If I got any pushback on that, I would remind the inquisitor that my family and I are charged with defining God and religion. I would further remind them that a scout is reverent, and reverent includes tolerance and respect of the beliefs of others.
I would explain that I fulfill my duty by experiencing, learning, teaching. I would describe a memorable experience, what I learned from that experience, and thank the inquisitor for giving me the opportunity to fulfill my “religious” duty by sharing the knowledge I had gleaned.
If I recall correctly, (it’s hard to look at previous messages with this app), you said you could truthfully describe yourself as your own god. Do you exist? If you exist and you can describe yourself as your own god, is it still reasonable to call yourself an atheist?
If you are your own god, what duty do you have to yourself? Are you fulfilling that duty? Are you reverent? If you can answer those questions (and it doesn’t really matter what the answers are), you are eligible to be a scout.
When your religion is defined by denial and opposition to all other religions, then it probably isn’t welcome where religious tolerance is a requirement.
Sorry, are you talking about Christianity?
Or were you talking about Islam?
Oh, wait, no, probably Hinduism.
Nah, surely Mormonism.
No I mean the literal purpose of Satanism is to oppose religion and particularly Christianity. That’s why it’s named after the embodiment of evil according to Christianity. It’s deliberately antagonistic. That’s not at all the same as believing that yours is the only true religion.
Goodness. You don’t really know a lot about Satanism, do you?
I don’t oppose religion, as long as religion stays in it’s own lane. As long as religion is personal, and not forced on other people, I simply don’t care; it’s literally not my problem, nor is it my job to ‘convert’ other people. If you’re happy being e.g. Catholic, that’s fine.
…Until you try to force me to obey the dictates of your religion because you can’t tell the difference between civil society and your religion.
Look, it doesn’t matter what you claim to be about if the name you choose is screaming something different. It’s like if you opened a restaurant called Hitler was right, and then acted surprised when people called you a Nazi. You can tell everyone that Jews are welcome, but nobody will believe you.
::sigh::
So you tell me, since you know my religion so well; what do I believe?
I had no idea this was a thing. Thanks for sharing…